On Tuesday 8 April 2025, the Victorian Women’s Trust proudly presented the third instalment of our Trust Women: Lunch Break Sessions, a six-part policy webinar series designed to break down some of the most important gender equality policy challenges facing Australia today.

Abortion is legal across Australia, but that doesn’t mean it’s accessible. From financial and geographic barriers to stigma and political resistance, many people still struggle to access the care they need.With the recent election of Trump in the US—whose campaign amplified anti-abortion rhetoric—concerns are mounting over renewed threats to reproductive rights here in Australia. In Reproductive Justice: Abortion Access in Australia, our expert panel discussed the policy gaps that leave abortion access vulnerable, who is driving opposition to reproductive justice, and how we can build a strong, unified defence.

Speakers: 

• Dr Pallavi Desai, Obstetrician and Gynaecologist, RANZCOG
• Dr Sandra Creamer, CEO, Australian Women’s Health Alliance
• Moderator: Madison Griffiths, author and podcaster

From February to June 2025, we’ll host expert-led discussions on key issues such as nuclear energy, early childhood education, abortion access, housing, youth mental health, and tech-facilitated abuse. Each session will offer insights from leading thinkers, advocates, and policy experts, helping us better understand the blockers to progress and, more importantly, the pathways forward. Learn more about our upcoming webinars. They’re all free but registration is essential.

Further Resources

• Australian Women’s Health Alliance  (Advocacy group and a wide variety of health resources)
  
• RANZCOG (Colleage for clinicians, as well as free tools and resources on a variety of women’s health issues)
• Pain’s Handmaiden by Madison Griffiths in The Monthly (Article)
• It’s For Every Body (Campaign by Australian Union)
• RANZCOG (Decision Aids for GPs)
• The Abortion Project (Support group)
• Tissue by Madison Griffiths (Book)

Transcript

Note: Transcript is provided for reference only, and has been edited for clarity. Please confirm accuracy before quoting.

Madison Griffiths:

Thank you so much to everyone who has plugged in today online in the middle of our working days to discuss abortion at this very Special Trust Women series as part of the Victorian Women’s Trust before we get started. I’d like to 1st acknowledge that I am tuning in on Gadigal land. So I’d like to acknowledge the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation as the traditional custodians of the country we are meeting on today, as well as the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, where the Victorian Women’s Trust is based. I’d like to acknowledge their continuing connection to the land and the waters, and to pay my respects to elders, past and present, and extend respect to all First Nations people present here today in this conversation.

So the Victorian Women’s Trust are presenting Trust Women, which is this wonderful new webinar series that is designed to unpack key gender equality policy challenges. So from February to June 2025 there will be expert-led discussions that will explore barriers to progress and pathways forward with leading thinkers, advocates, and policy experts. This webinar is part of that ongoing gender equality policy webinar series, and each session will dig into a different topic, such as energy, abortion, access — as we are here today — discussing housing, tech-facilitated abuse, and teen mental health. All sessions are free.

And our staff will, as they already have popped the registration link in the chat. There will be a short Q&A toward the end of this session, so please pose your questions in the Q&A function.

But before we get started, and perhaps a good little reminder for those of us that are keen to ask questions. This is fundamentally a pro-choice discussion, while we will be acknowledging nuances in abortion discourse. This conversation is very much intended to be safe, considered, and doggedly pro-choice. Everybody loves somebody who has had an abortion, and no two experiences of terminating a pregnancy are the same, which is an important reminder.

So abortion is legal in Australia, but it is often inaccessible, due to cost, location, stigma and political resistance with rising anti-abortion rhetoric. What policy gaps leave access vulnerable? Who’s behind the opposition? And how can we defend reproductive rights? 

We are joined here by Dr. Parlavi Desai, who is a practicing obstetrician and gynaecologist, and a Fellow of the Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Obstetricians, and Gynaecologists, Dr. Pahlavi has over 30 years of experience in the field. She is currently a specialist, obstetrician, and gynaecologist at Joan Kirner Women’s and Children’s at Sunshine Hospital, and she performs gynaecological procedures at John Faulkner, Private Hospital, and Epworth Freemasons.

Dr. Pallavi, would you like to just wave and introduce yourself?

Dr Pallavi Desai:
Hello, everyone nice to meet you, and I come from the Wurundjeri Country. At the moment I’m in the hospital, so if you hear an overhead announcement, I’m not running to it, but it may just be there.

Madison Griffiths: 

No worries, and I’d love to introduce everyone to Professor Sandra Creamer, who’s CEO of Australian Women’s Health Alliance, a lawyer with an order of Australia for her leadership for First Nations, women and people on issues of climate change, health rights and self determination. 

Sandra, would you like to introduce yourself and say ‘hi’ to everyone?

Prof Sandra Creamer: 

Yes, good afternoon, everyone, and thank you very much. I’m on Darumbal Country, and also a pleasure to be here having this discussion. Thank you.

Madison Griffiths: 

Wonderful. My name is Madison Griffiths. I am a writer, and my book Tissue, came out in 2023. That explores themes around abortion following my own lived experience terminating a pregnancy. So I’m very excited to be moderating this conversation with these incredible women here today.

So we’re going to start with a question for you, Sandra, for the benefit of our listeners. Would you please start by illustrating the current legal status of abortion access in Australia, and perhaps start by saying or explaining how access might not necessarily be totally equitable in every State and Territory.

Prof Sandra Creamer: 

Yeah, thank you. And as you were saying in your opening, that abortion is legal. In Australia there are medical procedures, as we know, and we will discuss that. And there’s no federal law against abortions. But in South Australia and Northern Territory most hospitals do not offer abortion services.

And then, as we know, there are many people requiring individuals to seek those services of private clinics. They have to pay hundreds of dollars. They’re out of pocket as well, and then medical abortions, though they’re available in mostly all of the states, they’re only up to 9 weeks, while the availability of surgical abortions vary from 16 weeks in the ACT, 2 to 24 weeks in Victoria. Though we have to remember, and you know this is my thing, that I say we people say abortion, you know, but abortion is part of a woman’s pregnancy, and we must consider that, and a lot of people make it a standalone thing — it’s part of a woman’s pregnancy. And I think that, you know, we must consider that. 

And so out in remote and rural areas, especially, it’s difficult to access them. And you know, due to the locations where they live costs limited services that are provided also stigma in some of the areas in some places. So we do need to have a safe and legal medical procedure across this country, and especially because out in remote areas. If they don’t access the doctors they have to call in a flying doctor, or they have to go into town themselves, but then they’ve got to go back into their own communities or towns or anything, and there’s no way there’s no access to any services after they have an abortion should be like, I said, considered like pregnancy. And I think that’s what we’ve got to start making people realise, even though it is legal.

There are all of these different rules and regulations that are affecting women across the board.

Madison Griffiths: 

Do you take these limitations in access to be the result of — you mentioned stigma, you mentioned certain areas, such as South Australia and the Northern Territory. What specific elements make abortion difficult to acquire in South Australia compared to say Melbourne or Sydney? Why is it in certain areas it’s more difficult to acquire?

Prof Sandra Creamer: 

Well like I said. People just say abortion. They don’t consider it in the pregnancy family, you know. And I think that should be really considered. I think if people start realising, okay, this comes from being pregnant. Women have choices, women, you know, we, you know, it’s up to us. People have abortions for different reasons, but it is part of a pregnancy.

And that’s one of the main things that’s not considered. And I think this is why there’s all these rules and regulations and stigma about it is that people make it a standalone conversation standalone issue. And we’ve got to start making those changes in that conversation when we’re having it. When we’re talking to people when we’re out in, you know, especially out in remote areas where they’re not able to have those access through and remote areas. You know, it’s just considered. Okay? Well, it’s an abortion. No. It’s part of our cycle as a woman in pregnancy.

Dr Pallavi Desai: 

To interject there. Sorry I worked in the Kimberley for about 3 years, and I had that dilemma of — I was the only obstetrician gynecologist — and Kimberly is the most remote area, you know that, and we have 3 main centers, Derby, Broome and Kannara, and there’s still 3 main centers that procedures are performed. And I would have many girls and women come to me seeking abortion. I was happy to do it, but the problem was, I was the only provider, for that was also the only provider for other procedures. I did not have a separate clinic or separate theater day for providing abortion services. It was considered a separate service, and there were a lot of staff that were not willing to man the theaters or woman theaters, in that time period.

So it used to be challenging, but I would set aside at least 2 spots on my catalyst in each place, for women who had a little bit more advanced gestation and needed the services straight away. We did not have medical abortion then. This was in 2007. I come from India and in India we were so advanced we already had medical abortion going for 3 years before I came here, so I was quite surprised that this is the lack of access to such an essential part of a woman’s pregnancy. I was really shocked and surprised, and I felt really bad for the women. So you’re very right that it is restricted by bad policy and not accepting abortion as part of a woman’s pregnancy.

Madison Griffiths: 

And we’ve seen that a lot in America, and we will get more into this a little bit later. But there are a lot of individuals that seek abortion, care for very myriad reasons. And we’ve seen that a lot of people are turned away while experiencing a miscarriage. For example, because the medical procedure required for that is an abortion or D&C [Dilation and curettage]. So there is a lot of stigma associated with just acquiring this medical procedure in and of itself, whereas I really appreciate that the two of you are really stressing the medical technical aspect of the necessity of requiring this sort of care.

Dr. Parlavi, I’d like to bring up conscientious objections with you. And before we get into that, would you mind describing to our audience here today what conscientious objection is before I ask you a little bit more about it.

Dr Pallavi Desai: 

Okay. So conscious, conscientious objection is when someone says that this particular thing is not, it does not agree with my conscience, and it could be for religious reasons, it could be for philosophical reasons. It could be, as part of a lived experience as well for that person. It could be a myriad of reasons, but most commonly it is a religious reason, and so they choose not to perform that particular act.

And we talked about this, and you know when you go, when you’re conscripted into an army and you are meant to kill people — you could have a conscientious objection, saying, it doesn’t fit my beliefs and doesn’t fit my religion. But you have joined the army, or you’ve been conscripted to the army. So you’re required to do that. A similar situation exists in obstetrics and gynecology when something that doesn’t fit my conscience, I’m not gonna do.

But then the question is — you knew this was part of the Obstetrics and Gynecology Service — so why did you join it?

So legally in Australia. You can say that I’ve got a conscience. I’m a conscious objectioner, but it is a mandatory requirement that you get referred to another person who’s not, except in New South Wales, where you don’t have to refer, but you can provide information. You’re mandated to provide information. And these are your options. It is debatable. Some people change their mind after a time, so they may be okay to do abortions. But something happens in their life that they think I’m not going to do this anymore. So it is individual. It is not across the genre.

So yeah, that’s what it is.

Madison Griffiths: 

And what is your view on conscientious objection? As it currently stands in Australia, you’ve outlined some of the mandatory requirements in combating that. But where do you stand as both a gynaecologist and a feminist? In how you view conscientious objection?

Dr Pallavi Desai: So, personally, I have no objection. And I don’t question the reasons why a woman will come to me. But the very fact that if I’m a person who’s saying, I’ve got a conscious, conscientious objection — sorry the overhead. I’ll just mute for a second — sorry about that. So because of if I’m saying that to a woman, it’s actually, I’m subtly judging her already, and that is not the right way. So I would encourage people — if you do have conscientious objections, don’t just say ‘I don’t provide the service’ or ‘we don’t provide the service’. Rather than saying the words, and then making the woman feel bad that she’s making something that is not morally accepted. Or by somebody else, and she feels judged.

So I feel it is…I come from a country we had which had a population problem. So there was no question of someone having a conscientious objection. We just had to do it as part of a government directive and a national program. We did not do any forced sterilization of forced abortions in our time, but you could not refuse to do it, even if you had any conscientious objection, because legally it was required. In some countries like Iceland, there is nothing like conscientious objection. You just have to do it, and know it is what your laws and your country accepts as well. This is a law that was made by our government, and so people have recourse to it. In some countries there is no recourse to such a thing.

So I think it is, I cannot force my views on other people, but I think it needs to be understood, as this is not something that you are doing to force your views. But this is something as part of your profession that you should be offering.

With regards to consciousness, objection in emergency situations like an inevitable miscarriage, the law states that you still have to provide the service, you cannot bring that into consideration.

Madison Griffiths: 

Okay, how are gynaecologists and obstetricians pushing up against conscientious objection? I believe that there are a few pro-choice organisations that are currently trying to publish a list of conscientious objectives, to make individuals safe in acquiring abortion care, as you make a point Pallavi. You know, there’s already a sense of judgment, if an individual has entered a clinic and has their doctor say, ‘I’m so sorry I don’t. I object to the medical procedure that you’re making’. 

Have you noticed in your line of work that there are gynaecologists and obstetricians pushing up against the prevalence of conscientious objection in Australia?

Dr Pallavi Desai: 

That’s a tricky situation, because they’re all your colleagues. So you don’t want it to be a sticky point as to — oh, you are a conscientious objector, and I’m not — and each is left to their own. But we do have a list of providers, and I think it’s shared in the chat. But you have the Victorian Government, Department of Sexual and Reproductive Health, putting out the website for my options, 1800 MY OPTIONS, which has a list of public providers, and if you call them, there’s also a list of private providers, who will provide the services. And there is the RANZCOG also has some guidelines, and everything is clearly written as to what the laws are in different states. So yeah, it is education. But you really cannot force views on people, but you don’t really need to fight with them as well. It’s what they’re doing.

But I think when you’re working in a rural and remote area, this becomes a problem. So if you have only one provider and they are a conscientious objector, then should they be working in that position?

Madison Griffiths: 

That’s a brilliant point, and that leads me to my next question to you, Sandra. I’d love to chat with you about some of the biggest barriers to reproductive justice in Australia. Now we’ve touched on a couple, but in particular, given that we do live on stolen lands, I’d love to hear from you about how First Nations women are primarily impacted by reproductive access.

Prof Sandra Creamer: 

Yes, so thank you very much. But also I want to say, adding on to what the first conversation is about. You know there are barriers, and those barriers are also for accommodation for women, especially real and remote out in indigenous communities. And there’s no wraparound services. It’s a lot of trauma for women to go through this at times, but there’s no wraparound services. You just go home, and sometimes women don’t have anything. So you know, that’s a lot of discrimination.

And as you were saying that, conscious it brings that in discrimination, but hospitals offer maternity wards so, but they do not offer abortion care, and we know there are these barriers, and you know sometimes these barriers are never going to change. We do have to challenge them. So for us here in Australia especially, we’re at a crossroad in life. I believe, and especially a lot of women out in remote communities or indigenous people, they’ve got to start injecting their human rights into this when they’re talking about abortion and what rights they do need to have it out in those communities, because access to safe abortion is a human right.

And you know, everyone has a right to health discrimination. And I want to provide some background to that. And I really talk to a lot of Indigenous women about this, about what their rights are, because Australia, we’re a signatory to the recommendation. 24 recommends that states prioritise prevention of unwanted pregnancy through family and planning and sex education. And this needs to be addressed on a policy level. And we know that in Australia, 1 in 3 Australian women live in real regional areas, where there are no local GP provided, and you know, for Indigenous people. And I can’t speak for all of them, because I’m only just speaking. about women that I’ve been in touch with, and you know, from speaking to them, but mostly a lot of them don’t talk about abortion. It’s not an open conversation, you know. It’s a private matter to them, and whether you say you know, it can be about their different beliefs and different spiritual beliefs.

And in those communities, when you go out there they don’t even have a full time doctor. You know, a lot of those remote communities. It’s air services or helicopter services from, you know, for example, from Alice Springs, might have to go out to one of those remote communities in Western. You know, these are very remote communities, even in rural areas. I know I come from Mount Eliza, and you still have to have the air, you know, you get the flying doctor taking you to Townsville if needed.

So they don’t have that full time doctor. They don’t have anyone there to discuss any options privately, and which is, you know, very limited to them. They do have limited maternity care, let alone abortion care, or miscarriage care, they don’t have it so. 

The other thing that is a barrier is about language. A lot of remote communities, some of them can speak up to 5 different languages, and English is not even a language to them. So there’s that barrier of conversation on what their beliefs are in some of the communities, their religious beliefs, or their spiritual beliefs especially, and then you have to translate all that into their language, so that they can understand what all of this means, because, like I said, a lot of them, it’s like a taboo. It’s like menstruation. A lot of them don’t talk about it because of their upbringings. I know that for a fact in my own family, you know, we don’t even talk about these sorts of things, or have that conversation, and that’s a generational way we’ve been living, you know, for Indigenous women.

So the and you know, when they’re not having that access as well as language barriers, they’re not having access to any literacy information, because I’ve been out into a community, and a lady said, ‘well, you know they sent this out, but we don’t understand it, because it’s all written in English’. So you know, it’s that literacy information that they’re having. So with those with those limitations, you know, it is very, very hard. But the other thing I want to point out, especially about some of the barriers, and I’m not going to get into a big thing about this, but a lot of the barriers also, when it comes to medical services or medical out in some of those remote communities. And like I said, it’s another conversation, but it can be around those 99 year lease land leases where they are provided services, and that. And so when it comes for Indigenous communities, it’s not just about those policies. It goes a lot deeper and a lot of it comes down to land tenure and what services the Government are willing to provide them under those 99 year leases. So it’s very difficult. 

Madison Griffiths: 

I love the point you make, Sandra, about wraparound services, because I think when a lot of people discuss abortion care, or terminating a pregnancy. They’re very much looking at it throughout the entirety of its scope of the individual gesture to terminate a pregnancy. They’re not considering aftercare. They’re not considering any form of emotional or physical complication or nuance in that sort of medical care. I’d be really curious to ask both of you. But we’ll start with you, Sandra, when you discuss these wraparound services, in an ideal world, what would those wraparound services look like both for women in rural areas and women in more urban metropolises?

Prof Sandra Creamer: 

I think you know what they would look like is that you know a referral service, you know, whether they’re in a doctor or Medical Center, or wherever I mean having those wraparound services would be someone that they can actually go to a mental health worker or support worker that they can actually have also medical understanding of what what is happening, what goes through their bodies or anything like that. Also, I think, understanding that when they are out in remote communities, they are entitled to have a carer with them when they’re going out into some of the hospitals. I know under the Queensland Health Policy Act is that in remote areas, and I’ll give you an example, is that where I come from, Mount Eliza, if you are on a no fixed address, say, for an example of a woman, and English, is not her first language, or if you’re a fly in, fly out, worker from that area, you may not be entitled to have a carer go with you on one of those flying doctor planes or those emergency planes to lift you out. So there’s a barrier in those policies as well that really holds women back — because, you know, and then, you know, it’s a deep barrier for those women. And I think that’s why they need those access services that you know. If you’re going to fly them in, out to community, out to medical hospitals, have a wraparound service when they get there, have somebody there to support them when they’re going through them, especially if they are not entitled, under some of these health policies, to have a carer fly with them even when they go back. You know they need to have somebody that they can go and discuss because it is. Look! It can be great trauma on these women that trauma can last forever in their lifetime, and you know they need to have that they need somebody to talk to. They need someone there to care for them. And like I said, abortion shouldn’t be a standalone conversation. It’s part of a pregnancy.

Madison Griffiths: 

That’s a brilliant point. And I really love that, you know, I think, the emotional aspect to terminating a pregnancy is often weaponised by anti-abortion players and used as a threat. If anything, saying, You know you will, you will carry this for the rest of your life. But then, on the other side of that. If we can work on facilitating care and love, and support throughout this process, it’s not an admission that this is a sinful thing to do. It just shows that, like anything like a pregnancy where there is care and there are dollars, and there are so many people scaffolding that experience, abortion should be afforded that same weight and care. 

Dr. Pallavi, I’d love to ask you to point that question back at you about wraparound services, and I guess the ideal scaffolding around surrounding abortion care that you believe ought to be necessary.

Dr Pallavi Desai: 

Yeah, I think, as Sandra said, that we don’t have open discussions about abortion, you know, and making it not a stigma, and something that is part of life is very important, and health education does come into that.

We should go back one step before that and provide excellent contraceptive services, prevent unwanted [pregnancy]. It happened.

So for a wraparound service — I would agree that you would need, you know, somebody with the mental health background to be a support person because every woman will think about, was this the right decision? Am I doing something wrong? And just that reassurance that you’re doing what is right for your body and what you think is right. And no judgment is very important. I think the judgment part is, what is society going to think about? Even when we’re asking women their previous obstetric history, it is very difficult to initiate that conversation as to okay — how many babies do you have? I’ve got 4 babies. Did you have any other pregnancies? And then they may or may not talk about their previous miscarriage or abortion. It is difficult, so that non-judgmental abortion is very important. Having aftercare.

So when do you fall pregnant? Next, when would you be ready to fall pregnant, having some contraception? If you’re not ready to fall pregnant. All this is part of wraparound care. In the college, we have now got an advanced training module, which is sexual and reproductive health, which is a kind of wraparound. So people who qualify after doing the like after doing the basic training, they can choose to go into the sexual and reproductive health module, and choose to be just abortion providers or contraception and abortion providers majorly, and do a little bit of some other stuff like gynecology or obstetrics. So we’ve got that module, and that will also help with the wraparound care.

And somebody’s asked about RU486. We’ve got to talk about it now, are you gonna ask us later? 

Madison Griffiths: 

I think we should talk about it now. But but while I’m here, I’d also like to remind attendees to please pose their questions in the Q&A, because around 12:50pm, we will be getting into those questions. But I think it is important, for the sake of the conversation, to differentiate medically the difference between a medical and a surgical abortion, so feel free to go ahead.

Dr Pallavi Desai: 

Yes, so medical abortion is when you don’t need to do anything surgically to the body, so there’s no procedure involved. It consists of, and many people might be knowing this, but it consists of one tablet that is, an antiprogesterone. So it stops the effect of the placenta or the developing placenta, and the other one is the one that induces uterine contractions to expel the tissue.

So one is called RU486, or mifepristone. It’s 1 tablet. It’s taken by mouth, and the second one is called misoprostol, which is taken either vaginally or kept in the tongue, in the mouth, and absorbed through the cheek and blood flow. So this is called MS-2 Step.

Now until August of 2023, only people who are obstetric and gynecology specialists could order it, or you had to do a special course to be able to order it or prescribe it. Now it’s opened up, and you don’t need to be a gynecologist to prescribe it. Even nurse practitioners can prescribe it. The only thing is the gestation. So if one is sure of their period, last menstrual period, and from the first day of the last menstrual period it is valid for up to 63 days. If the periods are regular. If the periods are irregular, it’s highly recommended that an ultrasound be performed to confirm the gestation, because this will not work very well in advanced gestation in New Zealand it is permissible for up to 10 weeks. In Australia it is up to 63 days, which is 9 weeks.

So it is a very handy option that we have provided. We are certain that the pregnancies in the uterus and the periods are regular. There’s been studies done to see if you didn’t do a scan? Was there an increased rate of ectopic pregnancies? But it was not any higher than the routine rates.

The surgical abortion is where one has to go in surgically. That involves opening up of the cervix and then evacuating the contents of the uterus, using either a suction, cannula, or other instruments depending on the gestation that involves general anesthetic, and it is done in probably like half an hour to 1 hr. It’s a procedure time, but involves staying in the hospital for the duration of that procedure, and for a couple of hours after.

So these are the two options, because MS-2 Step can be provided by other providers, it has become more universally accessible, and if we have got GP resources as well. The college has got the abortion guideline that came out in 2023. A lot of work, evidence-based work went into that, and this has been endorsed by the Royal Australia College of GPs. So all GPS have access to the guideline. They have access to the resources, and there is a decision aid for women to decide which kind of procedure they would like to have.

Is it a medical one or surgical one? And what they would qualify, for even before they go to the doctor they can access that decision guide. So this is where we are at. I think we’re getting there, but it’s taking a lot of time.

Madison Griffiths: 

Absolutely. I’m going to raise a question to both of you now, zooming out and looking a little bit more cleanly at socio-political forces that inform abortion discourse. So we’ll start with you, Sandra. As we are all presumably aware, Roe V. Wade was overturned in America in 2023, following a series of particularly oppressive abortion bans, like the notorious Texas 6 week abortion ban. Now, as we have clarified abortion, is legal on home soil. But I’d love to speak to you both about whether or not you feel that the American gesture to overturn Roe V. Wade has emboldened certain anti-abortion players in Australia, and whether or not that has emboldened an anti-choice rhetoric. 

Is Australia on shaky ground? What do you think, Sandra?

Prof Sandra Creamer: 

No? Well, at the moment they’re not, but just see who gets in. But I think one of the things is that we’ve got to remember that in Australia that we do have the human rights where we are signatory to the cedar, and that does give us a lot more rights. And I think people don’t understand the system that it is here. So if you’re discriminated against, anything that you feel, just say something. You can go into a tribunal, and you can take that discrimination matter into a tribunal. Then it’ll go into court whether you want to take it any further. So we have those options when it comes to women’s rights. And we’ve got to actually start using some of those, whether you feel discriminated against, or whether, you know, if you feel you’re out in a community and you’re not getting that healthcare, and there is abortion or anything. You know you can take those rights up against any policies.

We are signatory to CEWDAW [Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women], and I just read out to you before what was under that CEWDAW. But I think one of the things is that leading culture of you know what is reproductive health — and in America the views in…you know, it’s different to hear, because in America, and people, you know, may think differently, but I think their views are more around their religious views, you have a lot of. And you see that in their voting process it’s about, you know, they’re talking about the religion they’re talking about the beliefs they’re talking about the moral beliefs that they’re supposed to have when it comes to abortion. And that’s why in America, though, it’s up to each state on whether they were going to ban that or not. And the reason why is because in the US Supreme Court, the Constitution does not explicitly protect the rights to an abortion. That’s why it’s left up to the states, and in that majority the justice argued that Roe was wrongly decided, and claimed the ruling was beyond the Constitution allows. But we have that different here, and I think for us, we think a little bit differently to what you know, what we have…we have a lot more rights in this country.

We’re openly having a conversation about rights. We have a conversation here about abortion, you know. Do you really think now, that you could have a conversation like this on a panel session across that country in America on abortion? It would not happen because of the fear of going to prison, you know, and you hear of cases of women who have had miscarriages, and they’re considered that they’ve had an abortion. They go to jail in different states. So I think you know, we don’t have that. We’re not on shaky grounds. We do have rights. I think you know, across the board a lot of states and territories there are changes within the women’s health system. It may not be enough now, but we can walk into somewhere and say, okay, I do want to have an abortion, or have a miscarriage, or and doctors with that conscious mind are not going to say. Well, you’ve had a background, backyard abortion. I think you know our stigma and our mind setting is a lot different, and I think we make it a bit more safer for women without thinking and putting that fear in them. And that’s what overrides anything you put fear into anybody, and they are not going to really speak out or do anything.

We can speak out about this. We can have panel sessions. So, for now I don’t think that, you know, we’re on shaky ground. I think you know you can go and have a conversation with some of the ministers on these issues. When you’re sitting at some different panels in America, we know for a fact that’s not going to help. And I think that the way that that case was handled. You have to look at each constitution, and where that all lies, and we know their Constitution is, you know, a bit different to ours.

Madison Griffiths:
It’s a wonderful point you make as well about the presence of backyard abortions, because it goes without saying that abortion bans does not limit the amount of abortions, it just limits the amount of safe abortions that occur.

Madison Griffiths: 

Dr. Parlavi, I’d love to raise this to you about…I guess the impact or outline that Roe V. Wade’s overturning has had on Australian policymakers.

Dr Pallavi Desai: 

So as a college, we were shocked when it got overturned, and we really felt terrible. I serve on the College Council, so I’m saying…but it was just…which century are we in? That was a question, you know, and we don’t have to blindly follow everything that America does. We don’t have guns in this country legally. So that’s something that we should take the good, but don’t take the bad from there, and that’s what people need to be aware of. I think there will be always people who will be, you know, anti-abortion faction. But how much of a voice they have is going to be decided by the rest of the population. If we don’t give them that much importance, and if we don’t pander to what they say, their voice is gonna die down at some point with globalisation and the Internet. Fortunately, we have a generation that is very woke and aware of such things.

I feel that if you bring religion into the conversation. That’s when the anti-abortion voice starts growing up. If we consider ourselves to be a secular country, this should not happen. Fortunately, we are more diverse in cultural and religious populations than America is. And I think people, when they put them into Parliament will vote sensibly, having all this in the back of their mind. I don’t think we are at danger, but I think if we don’t do anything, we could be in danger.

So what we need to do is raise awareness — of what is abortion, that it is part of pregnancy care, and that every woman has the right to access that care, as she has the right to access all other kind of medical care — and when this mindset changes, you will have more people supporting abortion, care, and less people objecting to it. And I think that’s where we need to go. I mean just objecting to something just because your religion says so, would not stand very well in this day and age is what I figured, and have the right people in the policy making place, I think.

Madison Griffiths: 

Well, that is a wonderful leeway, to my next question, as I’m sure everybody’s aware, that there is an election in just a few weeks, and I’d love to ask both of you. 

We’ll start with you, Sandra. How should our viewers be directing their advocacy efforts when it comes to voting, and making sure that abortion, access, and all forms of reproductive access are front and centre in our voting efforts?

Prof Sandra Creamer:

What we have to do is we have to look at our human rights. Remember, as a woman, politicians have to look at our rights also in this country as a woman. And I keep reminding people, we have rights. We have to when we’re batting for anything like this, making sure that you advocate as a woman. For me I advocate as an indigenous woman what my rights are, and what my needs are for this country, but also, not just for now. But I always talk about things, and I always say when I go to politicians asking for changes in policies and legal frameworks, for us as indigenous women. We look at doing these things for the next seven generations to make sure that it follows on, not just for now, but for the next seven generations. So these things are implemented in. And we, at this time, we have a lot of women who advocate. We have to be a collective, and we have to walk together on advocating. When it comes to our rights, and especially our health rights, we have to do that. We have to talk to politicians. We know states, territories and commonwealth governments must work together to protect and support access to abortion. And it’s just not the sole responsibility of states and territories and the Commonwealth government. You know, they have to be held also on all critical levels that are happening. So you know, go out there, look at what the policies are, question people about what? What you need as a woman. And again, like I said, I always look at what my rights are, what can I advocate for as an indigenous woman in this country, and what my rights are and should be, but not for now, but for the next seven generations in place. Let’s start implementing things while we can. At this time, who knows what can happen later on?

Madison Griffiths: 

Thank you. 

It’s a wonderful point, Dr. Pallavi. Would you like to speak to that as well?

Dr Pallavi Desai: 

Yes. So through the College, we are doing a lot of advocacy, not just in this sphere, but also, why are women not included in medical research, especially pregnant women. So a lot of research leaves out women we’re doing. Lots of medicines that are used by females to be on PBS. We’ve had some small wins. We are getting some more wins. So in all forms, as a college, we are working towards getting more equity in this sphere, and advocacy is a major part. So as we work in our public spheres, we work in our private spheres educating women about their rights. 

Another place is menopausal hormone therapy. People are not aware of it, and it just left, oh, it’s something that only some people do. No, it should be universal, it should be. There’s a shortage of patches. We need to have more of them. So we try to advocate for all aspects of women’s health, care and abortion care is one of them. So that’s what we can do. And as individuals, we can educate our communities, we can educate our family when these topics come up. That this is not something to be left out. This is part of your life and our life.

And I just want to add in the Australian Women’s Health Alliance, if you’re not sure on things, have a look at, go to our website, have a look at our policy briefs, have a look at the resources that we do have, and get further information on what you’re wanting to advocate about, or what you’re needing to know. We have a whole lot of resources, and, you know, join big groups of organisations. And you know, if you become members, and so that they can advocate for you because some women don’t. They want to be in the background, some individuals or some organisations due to funding or whatever. But you can join groups as an individual like, for instance, with our organisation and have a look. And we do advocate very widely on this issue. Yeah, thanks.

Madison Griffiths:
That’s a brilliant point. I loved how both of you really stress right from the beginning of this seminar that under the large umbrella of women’s health. Abortion has to be considered a huge pillar of women’s health. It is part of life, it is a part of any form of health care, and it should be considered as such. So I will urge all members of today’s talk to really factor that into your voting efforts as well as consider which parties are really explicitly making mention of reproductive access in its entirety when they discuss women’s health initiatives.

I’d love to get into some questions. I would like to remind everyone that there is a Q&A section. So rather than putting your questions in the chat, which is very robust, and I’m very much looking forward to reading through that, I would recommend that you go to the Q&A section which is, I believe — I’m not very good at technology, unfortunately — but it’s somewhere here. I am looking at a couple of the questions that we’ve got up. I’m going to pose them to the two of you, Dr. Pallavi and Sandra.

It’s a really great question from Phoebe that was asked at the beginning of the session, and I am very curious. Are there any medical procedures other than abortion that doctors are legally able to conscientiously object to? Perhaps we start with you, Dr. Pallavi.

Dr Pallavi Desai:
Fertility treatment is one that they could object to. But legally, fertility treatment is restricted to people who do a sub specialisation in that. So beyond a certain limit, it’s only subspecialists who can do it, and they take up the subspecialty because they want to do it. But you know there will be people who will not do fertility treatment, but that’s their chosen scope of practice rather than a conscientious objection, because that’s something that is not an emergent in the whole space of things, you know, whereas in when you’re pregnant and you need an abortion.

You have a time limit, so that is one other thing. Apart from that, I can’t think of other things. Really, to be honest.

Madison Griffiths:
I don’t think it’s any surprise that these two areas of medicine that are able to be conscientiously objected to do grossly impact women. I think that goes without saying, Sandra, would you like to add to that point about conscientious objection and its limitations? And if it reaches further than abortion.

Prof Sandra Creamer:
Yeah, I think you know, for Indigenous women we have, I think, out in remote communities, especially, I’m speaking for Indigenous women whose language is not there and still do a lot of traditional practices. I’m not talking about women in the city, and that, and I know that there are a lot of things that when it comes to medical or anything for women, there is a lot of that conscientious practice that’s happening, especially in a remote community, for example. So the doctors then don’t want the rest of the community coming to their house and saying, you know, we don’t agree with what you’ve done to that woman, or you know they can be removed and sent straight away, and there can be writing or whatever in some of these communities.

So it’s really, I think you know individually where doctors go to different places or different communities to understand what the lore is for a lot of these communities, and what their practices are and what their spirituality beliefs are, because otherwise, you know, you go in there blind. And you can really create problems. And this is what has happened in some of the communities where people have gone out there because there are a lot of restrictions on some of these communities because of the beliefs that are being held out there.

Madison Griffiths:
That’s a really good point.

Riley has asked about, which, I think is a really great point, commenting on the rights of a young person, so an individual under 18, and their access to abortion and confidentiality, which I think is a really wonderful point. 

You two have stressed particularly Sandra, you stressed the importance of privacy when it comes to inquiring about these procedures. Dr. Pallavi, would you like to speak to what an experience could potentially look like for an individual under the age of 18, when it comes to acquiring pregnancy care, and abortion access.

Dr Pallavi Desai: So we look at competency. I don’t know if people are aware of that. So if a person is under the age of consent, less than 16 years of age, if they can make decisions about their health or not, if they’re able to understand the implications of a procedure, the implications, if there are any complications on their future reproductive life.

So if we assess a person to be really competent, they can access abortion care with full privacy and confidentiality. The problem arises when they’re not really competent, and they may not want to tell their parents, but we would encourage them to bring somebody who is a medical decision maker for them, who is an adult who’s a competent adult. So it could be, you know, it shouldn’t be the partner, because then you have problems of, you know, sexual abuse and all that. But it should be somebody they can trust, and who’s a competent adult if they don’t want to tell their own family about these things, who is also willing to take some responsibility for that consent. So the competency arises from a case in England, where the girl was thought to be competent to get contraceptive pills.

Although she legally could not consent, the law changed. And if you’re really competent, you can. So it’s similar to contraceptive, you can, because abortion is a form of contraception or interception. So the same laws apply there.

Prof Sandra Creamer:
I just want to add to that. I think that’s why you have to have wraparound services, especially for the mental health of some of these young people if they are going on in there, and they don’t want to take anyone. And because of confidentiality they’re not going to say anything, and a lot of women won’t. Young girls won’t say anything. But you do. This is why our wraparound services are so important before and after care, because of the mental health, and the trauma that it can create on people. And you don’t know what can happen with them, because they seriously need wraparound services, particularly. For this reason it is very confidential, very private. A lot of women will have it done, and nobody in the world will know. But it’s conscious that they live with, maybe not for now, but maybe in years to come. Wraparound services are so needed in this area.

Madison Griffiths: 

Absolutely. We’re nearly at the end of the policy webinar today. So I would like to just add one more question, as I feel like it’s relevant to what you mentioned there about wraparound services and also looking at medicine outside of just the medical landscape. An anonymous attendee has mentioned in the question arena that I did mention doulas earlier — abortion doulas are an emerging field. I know of one personally, and I find it a fascinating and wonderful initiative.

What are the two of your thoughts when it comes to abortion doulas and their role in supporting someone to access abortion and potentially? What training for abortion doulas could look like in today’s current medical climate?

Dr Pallavi Desai:
Do you want me to go first?

Madison Griffiths:
Yes, go for it, go for it.

Dr Pallavi Desai:
Okay, so I think that’s a brilliant idea. You know, in the traditional old time when we had big joint families, there was always a support person in the family right for your births, maybe not for abortion care. However, you need that person to be with you, to give you that emotional support, the training would probably involve, not just psychological and emotional support, but also recognition of deterioration. So if something’s not going right, when do you take the woman to the hospital? When do you say she’s bleeding too much and needs to go to the hospital? And when you say, okay, this is now complete, and that’s all we need to do. There’s nothing more. And you know it also, just you know, it’s abortion is, especially if it’s a medical abortion. It is not without pain.

And that she’s, you know, eating and drinking as she should, or she can. So all these, you know, this kind of blanket of warmth around the woman is very, very important. And that’s a good idea. That’s a great idea.

Madison Griffiths:
Do you have any lasting thoughts on abortion doulas, Sandra?

Prof Sandra Creamer:
Yeah, no, I agree. You know, it’s that blanket of warmth, love, no judgment care that’s so needed. And you know, that’s what should be happening. I fully agree with what the doctor said. We need to have it.

Madison Griffiths:
Absolutely, absolutely. I want to thank you both so much for your time and expertise and advocacy in this space. Thank you very much, Dr. Pallavi and Sandra. I so appreciate having the opportunity to speak with you both this afternoon. 

I’d also love to thank Ally and Rachael from the Victorian Women’s Trust. Thank you so much for all of your endless, tireless work when it comes to advocating for women’s rights and women’s justice, and all of that. We will share a recording of the event in the coming days for any individuals that would like to access it afterwards.

I would love to remind you all that this webinar is part of an ongoing gender equality policy webinar series. So the Lunch Break Sessions through the Victorian Women’s Trust aptly titled, Trust Women. So there will be talks happening right up until June 2025. This year, spanning energy housing, tech-facilitated abuse and teen mental health. All sessions are free, and our staff will pop the registration link in the chat. If you scroll up to the top you’ll be able to find it. Thank you very much again for your time, and I hope everyone has a smooth sailing back into their work days, or whatever else they’re up to today.

Dr Pallavi Desai:
Thank you very much for having me. It was a privilege to talk and to be able to share views and interact with Sandra as well, and thank you.

Prof Sandra Creamer:
Thank you very much. It was a great pleasure to come on here on behalf of the Australian Women’s Health Alliance, and, you know, promoting good conversation for women and for everybody.

Madison Griffiths:
Absolutely. And if this conversation has raised any issues or any big thoughts, there are some wonderful resources that are mentioned in the chat. But I would like to plug my dear friends, that run The Abortion Project, which is an incredible cross state organisation that is all about individuals who have acquired or terminated pregnancies, sitting around and hanging out and chatting about those experiences, because, as we know, lived experience is very much a safety blanket for everyone, and they will provide support there. So thank you very much. Enjoy the rest of your day, and I look forward to keeping up to date with your journeys.

Prof Sandra Creamer:
Thank you very much. Thank you.

Ends